Reuters / Shamil Zhumatov
Afghanistan Against US Plans To Transfer Military Gear To Ukraine - Kabul Official -- RT
Kabul is against Washington's alleged decision to transfer weapons and machinery left from its military mission in Afghanistan to Ukraine, an Afghan presidential administration official told TASS. The issue will be discussed with Obama, he added.
American specialists in Afghanistan are currently preparing US army MRAP (Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected) vehicles to be transferred to Ukraine, according to the information obtained by the Afghan presidential administration. The US combat mission command refuses to discuss the issue with Kabul, saying the White House is in charge, a representative of Ashraf Ghani’s administration told the agency.
Ghani will raise the question during his visit to Washington in January. He plans to urge Obama not to move the equipment to Ukraine, the agency's source said. "The issue is directly connected with sustaining the country's strategic partnership with the US," the official added.
Read more ....
Update: Kabul opposes US plan to send arms in Afghanistan to Ukraine -- Press TV
My Comment: So much for U.S. promises.
42 comments:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/isis-islamic-state-iraq-american-tanks-humvees?click=pm_news
Remember Hillary's promise to the Afghan women. "We will not abandon you."
Remember Hillary's promise to the Afghan women. "We will not abandon you."
Yep
if you guys think that the Afghans will do anything with our equipment except sell it... well, I have some land under the Brooklyn Bridge I'd like to sell you-- at least the Ukraine knows how to fight Russians and won't sell the stuff--
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/sierraleone/context.html
"
The Afghan military isn't smart enough to repair these vehicles plain and simple.
The Afghans keep, and have kept a ton of old Soviet gear, running for decades, from tanks to helecopters, with very little in the way of spare parts or technical support,
So yeah, they are "smart" enough,
And there are whole depots filled with hundreds of millions of dollars of spare parts, far in excess of what was needed to keep them running,
And MRAP's are a tool that will protect the Afghan Army and Police ftom the Taliban,
So, the move is political.
Probus,
I personally think it's a case of taking it away from one thief to give to another.
I wouldn't bet my tax dollars at the Afghanis being adept enough to repair modern American military vehicles. So how many of these old Soviet tanks and helicopters are they still joy riding in Jay?
They run a tank brigaide:
http://www.stripes.com/news/afghan-army-s-rusty-tank-relics-still-roll-into-battle-1.294062
A few dozen Hips, Hounds, Halo's and Anatov's
The Taliban even managed to keep half a dozen Mig21's in the air.
There isn't a lot of "repair" work on modern US Military gear, as most of the technology that gives it it's tactical advantage, can only be repaired at the factory. Keeping the gear running, mostly consists of diagnostics and module swaps. That normally requires a massive logistics train, but in Afghanistan, there are hundreds of thousands of containers of spare parts, ( part kf the billion dollar Contractor Corruption), well in excess of what was needed, or even will be needed, that are scheduled to be destroyed.
So they have 44 T-55 and T-62 tanks of which about 20 to 25 can actually be started....lol
In 2013 they asked India for 150 T-72 battle tanks and two squadrons of attack and utility helicopters. We've also given them over 2,500 humvees. So we gave them armored vehicles but they won't more?
So India signed a deal with Russia and Afghanistan in 2014 where it would pay for all the heavy equipment Afghanistan asked for.
Source wiki
Given that they have not had a parts supply for those tanks, since 1979, and the tanks are survivors of 4 Wars and god only knows how many Warlord on Warlord conflicts, that's pretty good.
There are only 35 existing Cunningham Chevelles out of over 1500 made, and that's just wear and tear, no wars.
They want the MRAP's for the same reason we shipped MRAP's there in the first place. IED's turn even uparmoured Humvees into death traps.
If you are running a Third World Military, there is some gear you will want that is Russian, because it's cheap, reliable and does the job, well enough. RPG's and AK's for example. Russian helo's for example, cost a fraction of the price of NATO gear, are far cheaper to operate, are far more rugged, and as long as the job is lifting gear or troops, makes perfect sense. For the same price as a Blackhawk, you can get 8 Hips. That's 132 troops, or 170 tons, moved for the same "price" as 12 troops or 7 tons.
Other "stuff", like MRAP's, Comm gear, Sniper rifles, TOW missiles, Javelins, Stingers, body armour, night vision gear, etc, you want NATO gear.
Larger IED's can take out MRAP's what they need is many well trained (EOD) specialists. But there having a hard enough time to training them to do that much less fix MRAP's.
Ukraine might be apart of NATO so giving them MRAP's not such a bad idea after all. The sectarian conflict in Ukraine would make good use of these vehicles. We given the afghans enough....time to help others I suppose.
MRAP's are designed to come apart. Most deaths and injuries in MRAP's came from rollovers, IED's, even the big ones. They are designed to channel the blast upwards, and have the drivetrain shear off, not become shrapnel.
http://breakingdefense.com/2012/10/the-great-mrap-debate-are-blast-resistant-vehicles-worth-it/
As for IED's, well between running Joint Rivet flights, EODESS heldcopters, jammer equippted MRAPs and fielding thousands of EOD techs, sniffers and robots, all we managed to do was slow down the rate of sucessful IED attacks, and minimize the injuries, all for an annual budget 9X the size of the entire Afghan Economy.
Afghanistan has been saddled with wars that the State cannot afford to fight. Anything we "give them", basically delays their collapse a little longer after we leave, giving us more time to claim victory.
Ukraine will never be a NATO Member. The NATO Charter prohibits it. The founding natikns were smart enough to realize that they needed to write in rules to prevent them from getting sucked into Colonial Wars, Territorial disputes, or inter-NATO conflicts by weaker members.
A week after the first MRAP arrives in the Ukraine, all the sensitive tech will be stripped and Fed-Ex'd to Russia and China.
I guess we could leave a brigade of about 20 to 25 vehicles if it makes you feel better. My point still stands they couldn't maintain them. And we're not really leaving like we did in Iraq with the thousands of special forces still doing there current mission.
Double stack 2 tank mines and you can flip a tank (M1) and kill the crew. It has been done.
You can also die from trauma in an MRAP that is intact and not from spalling or a shaped charge penetrating the armor.
Given that our Great Leader Obama has said the war is over, why does Afghanistan need MRAPS?
Afghanistan might have kept some planes in the air, but others they have not and it made the news and became a scandal.
The Afghanis might be to keep able to brigade of tanks going, but can they keep the tanks and MRAPS going at the same time with a large depot or not?
Obama is a bust. Afghanistan should choose/ work with Russia or Pakistan and grind the Taliban into the dust. Otherwise they ain't going to get there on their own.
Broke or not broke America cannot help the Afghanis. The 5th column (4th estate, Democrat Part, etc.)has seen to that.
I don't know if the new President is better than Karzai. He seems to be. I hope for the best, but the new president is saddled with
a turkey, Obama, and a long history (the past 10 to 3o years).
And the Afghans are above doing the same. I'd trust a Ukrainian serviceman not to shoot me in the back before I would and Afghan let's be reasonable.
"A week after the first MRAP arrives in the Ukraine, all the sensitive tech will be stripped and Fed-Ex'd to Russia and China"
And if we leave them in Afghanistan that won't happen?
...cuz the Russian and Chinese intelligence services are so fracking incompetent they could not possibly buy, steal or scavenge an MRAP from the Taliban, corrupt Afghan officials or cull it from the battle field?
Jay I think I will call you Debbie. That seems to be your MOS and purpose.
We will either leave, even the SOF guys, or we will go full bore back in.
The Afghan Military and Police are losing to the Talibs and other factions, who have grown their strength and supply chain to the point that they no longer are constrained to seasonal fighting.
We had to impose an unconstitutional power shareing agreement to stave off a Civil War in the Afghan Government.
We are for the most part leaving with a small footprint left behind to keep the Kubal government in power. America can never give enough ask Iraq...Look how that turned out
The Spartan issue, had nothing to do with the Afghans. It was a deal to kick money to an Italian Company, for the purchase and maintenence of used Italian Airforce Aircraft.
The Afghan's didn't even have trained Pilots, so Italians flew the aircraft.
There also, were no missions for the aircraft to fly, and they were not fitted with the mod's to allow flight service in Afghanistan.
In USAF service, the Spartans were pulled and scrapped a decade ago, as it is an aircraft with out a mission.
Everything the Spartan can do, the Herc does better, and there are lots of things the Herc can do, that the Spartan can't.
http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-news/first-all-afghan-c-130-crew-takes-to-the-air.html
A lot of the MRAP tech that is sensitive, the Afghan's don't need to fight the Taliban,
But with out that tech in the Ukraine, there is no need for the MRAP. The Novarussian's don't use a lot of IED's , or even mines. They use tanks, artillary, Grads and ATM's. MRAP's are no better than BRM's or BPM's against saturation artillary.
What the MRAP's have is all the digital warfighting gear, that the Russians can't tap, and the Command and Control, the Ukrainians lack.
Upthread, I posted a link to a PBS Documentary, that notes that all aspects of the Ukraine Government, Military and Defense Sectors are up to their eyeballs, in the illegal arms and technology trade.
Back in August, plant officials at the KTF, stole an upgraded T-72 from the Ukraine Military, and sold it on.
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/218093.html
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/DK22Ag02.html
Unless you include the guy hand making AK copies in his blacksmith shop, Afghanistan doesn't have an Arms Industry.
If you remember, Bush said we don't do Nationbuilding,
Cheney said we would be greeted with flowers,
Rumsfield said there was no such thing as a Sunni/Shia/Kurd divide,
Anzio said it would be a cakewalk,
And Feith said it would pay for itself.
In Afghanistan, we had one shot to get it right, at the Loya Jurga, but we did a absolutely everything, deliberately wrong.
So the Ukrainian rebels won't use IED's or anti tank mines? And all the sensitive digital warfighting gear you speak of could be removed before handing it over.
The NovaRussians don't use a lot of mines or IED's. Why would you put an antitank mine at a crossroads, to deny military movement, when civillian movement is how you get your intel? Instead, the NovaRussians just lay a grid of BM 21's on the crossroads from 20km away. If the Ukrainian Army tries to use it, you drop 24 240mm AT/HE and AT canister rockets on them in under 2 minutes.
The "weakness" of the Ukraine Army is not in tanks, artillary, apc's and IFV's. That's what all that Soviet Era heavy industry makes.
They don't have soldiers willing to fight, they have conscripts. Their Command and Control, is abhorrent. Half the time they don't know where they are, and they have to rely on personal cell phones to communicate. The Politicians keep sending them on political missions, and their Generals are inept.
This:
https://news.vice.com/article/on-the-road-of-death-after-the-battle-for-ilovaysk
Wan't done with landmines and IED's.
Jay,
It definitely looks like you have the goods here.
I only see 4 posts at your BlogSpot site. Maybe you are too busy remodeling.
LinkedIn looks interesting too.
Just because you say they don't use a lot of mines or IED's doesn't mean they won't start to. You just love trying make a point don't you Jay:)
Anzino, phill,
We keep winning all the battles and losing all the Wars.
The politics of our wars are never grounded in reality, and very quickly on, the Wars become a form of Corporate Socialism, a way of spreading the money around.
The ADE 651 is a perfect example, so is the Spartan,
Just once in my life, before I die, I'd like us to actually "win" a war, something more important to the world than Grenada or Panama.
Some wars aren't ours to win the Afghanis will have to eventually sort out there own country. And Ukraine isn't our war to begin with we're just helping.
"The politics of our wars are never grounded in reality, and very quickly on, the Wars become a form of Corporate Socialism, a way of spreading the money around."
"Jerry Doyle" says that lot. I don't always agree with him, but I like him and respect him.
kdwn.com/jerry-doyle
I agree with Jerry on that & therefore I agree with you on it to an extent.
I have heard what people with multiple tours had to say about Kuwaiti contractors versus other contractors when it came to food and utilities.
I also saw how the service tried to cut costs.
In 4 years we went from unarmored Humvees to MRAPs. Not bad. could we have gone faster? Maybe. That is a discussion all in itself.
"Just once in my life, before I die, I'd like us to actually "win" a war, something more important to the world than Grenada or Panama."
Agreed. That said ... Probably argue about Vietnam
Spartan
I got nothing there. I'll concede the point unless I find new information, which I probably won't
IMO you made a good cost/benefit analysis on the Soviet helicopters. I usually more tails (planes) than fewer. You get one shot down and you go with expensive & fewer, you are done.
I took my 88 year old mom out tonight for a supper and a concert .... aside the fact that my mom had a good time .... I have to confess that I found this discussion far more interesting than the concert. :)
You are right Jay .... we win the battles but lose the wars. But on the bright side .... the ones who do win the wars .... some of them eventually come around and try to be like us (minus the wars).
They were on the way, but then an Ex-polish Prince decided that breaking the country and creating a radicalized armed Islam running amuck was a good idea.
http://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/
http://afghanistanonmymind.blogspot.ca/2011/08/photos-of-afghanistan-before-and-after.html?m=1
At the Loya Jurga, we had the one change, but instead, to facillitate the war on Iraq and free up troops, the Generals decided to put the Warlords back in charge.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/10/iraq_billions200710
http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/u-s-air-force-shelving-brand-new-c-27j-spartans-article-1.1479580#bmb=1
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7f435f04-8c05-11e2-b001-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3NFsi8tm3
Last time that kinda happened, was Vietnam, sort of. They like our money, our tourists, some of the trade deals, but not our politics.
Iraq, Lybia, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Nigeria, The CAR, Algeria, Mali, arn't going to turn out that way, and the conflict is spreading.
The ex-Polish Prince .... I presume you are referring to Zbigniew Brzezinski.
LOL .... Jay .... you remind me of my dad. He despised Brzezinski ... and for good reason.
I agree on your list of countries that are becoming failed states .... they are not going to be like us.
Brezinski had a sociopathic hatred for "Russians",
Expat's can carry a lot of baggage.
The Croat Canadian community raised a lot of money for arms, which were used by the Croat's, to kill Canadian Peacekeepers during the Yugoslav Wars.
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