Patrick Donahue, Bloomberg: Paris Killings Seen Fueling Europe’s Anti-Islam Movements
WNU Editor: The problem is not growing anti-Islam movements .... the problem .... a problem that is escalating worldwide .... explosively so with the rise of the Islamic State .... are the terror attacks and the killings that are being done in the name of Islam. As I have said on more than one occasion .... it is only those within the Muslim community who are in a position to put a stop to all of this .... but they themselves are now at war with each other. Muslims are killing Muslims .... and they are doing so at a rabid rate throughout the Middle East and North Africa. And no .... I do not see any good solutions or outcomes from all of this. If there is a solution (at least in the West) .... it is probably the time to now have Western governments engage with Muslim religious leaders who reside in the West to have that long needed debate on Mohammad, Jihad, and the teachings of the Koran .... and why some parts of it are wrong and not at all applicable to the 21rst century ... and to have that taught in the mosques Unfortunately .... I do not see that happening .... and for not lack of trying. As to the growth of anti-Islam movements in Europe .... what surprises me is not the growth .... what surprises me is that it took so long .... and yes .... the Charlie Hebdo massacre .... and future terror attacks done in the name of Islam .... all of this is going to unfortunately fuel Europe's growing anti-Islam movements.
Update: I do not think he is the right person to push this agenda, but at least it is a start .... From Egypt's leader, an ambitious call for reform in Islam (AP)
11 comments:
There are Muslim leaders who are calling for this and teaching this, but bloggers and commenters all over the web continue to say this isn't so, and continue to call for it to happen, in spite of it already happening. Which to me is kind of offensive and racist, even though I'm sure none of the holders of this opinion think so. Every time something like this happens, people say this shit, and every time something like this happens, I see evidence that Muslim leaders are doing exactly what bloggers and commenters are calling for. So please take a step back and actually figure out if this is being done. E.g. I read yesterday about a couple of imams with like a million facebook followers who immediately condemned the Paris attacks. Maybe what you're calling for is slightly different, but I see variations of this expressed on comments all over the web, and it's almost always expressed by a racist asshole, made clear by what else he/she says. I'm not saying you're that, but it is irritating to see this same sentiment appear everywhere. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not, but I just wanted to say something. For what it's worth, this blog is definitely one of my top news sources now! :)
Mark .... I cannot speak for anyone else .... just for myself. I am well aware that many Muslim leaders are calling for change .... if not demanding it .... but after yesterday's attacks, as well as looking at the "big picture" in the Middle East as Muslims are escalating the killing of Muslims .... all because of religion .... it is clear from my point of view that not enough is being done ... and that is my beef.
Also .... this is not an issue of racism .... Islmam is not a race ... it is a religion/philosophy/ideology .... and should be treated as such.
Mark,
100,000 people protested against these killings.
There have been a few comments. One was by the head Iman of Paris. Is he for real? One way to tell is if he got 100,000 people out to protest these killings, Friday Sermons were consistent on this point and his word carried weight with other mosques in France as shown by their sermons.
We had the Million Man March by Louis Farahkhan. That surely comforted people. If a radical like Farahkhan can do this, why not a so called (or claimed) moderate Iman?
Al Azhar in Cairo came against these killings. What happens in & around Al Azhar that shows this is not a one off?
Al Sisi was for real. He could end up like Sadat. So I take his comments for real and at face value.
The people complaining about Islamaphobes cannot show a sustained, consistent, effective mes against Islamic extremists. So what do you want form us? "Thank you sir or ma'am, give me another"
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"Every time something like this happens, people say this shit, and every time something like this happens, I see evidence that Muslim leaders are doing exactly what bloggers and commenters are calling for."
Yes, & immediately after 911 I saw a picture of Yasir Arafat giving blood and looking worried. After a few months it was the same ole same ole.
Also what CAIR says does not count. Anything do is taqiyya.
The problem with most of the denunciations from the Islamic side vis-à-vis Charlie Hebdo and other recent incidents that I have read, is that it is always said with a caveat.
If they didn't disrespect Islam it would never have happened or it's because of marginalised Muslim youths, it's Islamophobia etc etc
When will it be denounced purely because it is abhorrent and barbaric and just plain wrong?
Until then I will keep hounding the fallacy that is the religion of peace...
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com
The real issue is not Islamophobia. In my view, the real issue is that Islam ascribes little intrinsic worth to humans. In Islam, humans must submit to Allah and obey. Obedience and submission is all Allah wants from humans. Even in paradise (the Moslem version of heaven), God is not present with the saved, but somewhere else.
Christianity is very different. In Christianity, God ascribes tremendous value to each person, and seeks relationships with humans who will freely worship Him. In Christian heaven, humans are with God.
As much as secular people deny it, the philosophical foundation for democracy, individual rights, freedom, private property, and free expression are derived from the Christian proposition that humans have intrinsic worth. Islam simply does not share that proposition.
This is why Islam struggles with democracy and with pluralism. I don't think that all Moslems have identical views regarding these matters, but many agree with the view that all Western rights are trumped by Islam's demand that every person and religion submit and obey. Under Islam, non Moslems have only the minimal status afforded dhimmis. I understand that the British iman Choudry (sp?) has an op ed piece in USA today that essentially states this openly. Certainly this imperialist view of Islam is held by more than radicals.
Islam badly needs a reformation, and I agree with WNU Editor that Moslems must have this debate among themselves. It is not clear how that debate will end up. But we in the West must break free of Islam's perennial attempt to say that we, not they, are the problem.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/08/muslims-fear-backlash-charlie-hebdo-grenades-islamic-france
"Grenades and gun shots have struck several Islamic targets in France following the murderous attack on the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, police and local media said, raising fears of an Islamophobic backlash among the country’s six million-strong Muslim community.
Three grenades hit a mosque in Le Mans, in the early hours of Thursday while in Aude, southern France, two gunshots were fired at an empty prayer room.
A Muslim family in their car in Vaucluse came briefly under fire but escaped unharmed, and a mosque in Poitiers was daubed with graffitti saying “Death to Arabs”. In Villefranche-sur-Saône, an explosion blew out the windows of a kebab shop next door to the town mosque."
Publius,
While already immersed in a doctrinal civil war (re: Thirty Years War), I have some doubts as to whether the Islamic body could work on another at the moment.
WNU Editor: I hear you. Yeah, I immediately thought, "That isn't racism. That wasn't the word I was looking for." :) I don't think what you're calling for is ever going to happen though. Government getting together with religion to decide on a message.. That seems pretty far-fetched to me in terms of anybody being down with that. I think there are tons of Muslim leaders who are trying their very best to spread this message of peace, and that the vast majority are peaceful and in fact victims of this crap (all of the Muslims in Iraq and Syria for instance). Frankly most of this is going to be in a language that you and I don't speak, unless you speak those languages. :) I certainly don't. So the news I get is very filtered through a western lens, and I'm not privy to news of that unless someone decides to translate and publish. Reading the Vice News updates on this is heartwarming though--there are an awful lot of Muslim leaders in France denouncing this.
But other commenters are taking up the slack, for sure. Publius:
"Moslems?" As for Christianity being a religion of peace and our foundation of society and all that horseshit, you do realize how many people were killed in the name of Christianity, right? How many Native Americans and such?
We had centuries to get it out of our system and conquer the world in the process, making most of these places our colonies and really fucking with them (e.g. converting them). So they haven't had a lot of time to get civil, and anytime they do it gets interrupted by war or a coup or some western interference or some religious nuttery.
But people saying Islam is a religion of war at its heart, being Islamaphobic and/or racist (not you, editor), and saying this shit all over the net--this is pretty much what ISIS and crew want. They want a religious war. That's a pattern they used in Iraq before, right?
Because believe me, I can say some pretty awful shit about Christianity, about how it cripples the mind and logical faculties, etc. Saying Christianity is somehow better than Islam is just something a Christian who can't empathize would say. It's all different, different flavors, etc., but it's all still the same horseshit. It's just that, in the West, we moved from religious war to world war and then straight up highway robbery capitalism. We're on a whole different level of screwing each other over. :)
Humans killing humans for fucked up ideologies is something that pretty much every part of the world has done at least once. Unfortunately, the world knowing it's wrong does not make it stop. I'm no historian, but sometimes it runs its course and sometimes a big ol' war happens to stop it.
And like you have said, WNU Editor, this shit is going to get worse. And it's going to be a feedback loop, as we can already see happening in France and Iraq in different ways. And the leadership in all of these countries is fairly awful in terms of knowing how to solve this, stop ISIS, quit fucking over the Middle East, etc.
And as an American, my country bears an awful lot of responsibility for unleashing this hellstorm. So it pains me to see other Americans fail to learn those lessons and still be religion-ist and racist. I know in rural areas around here, people are pretty fucking racist towards Muslims and people from the Middle East. And they're all Christian, so it's the religion bias and actual racism. But these are the same types of people who can't handle homosexuality. So anyway, when I see that stuff online, it pisses me off. WNU Editor, you're not doing it. I just wanted to be sure you weren't and maybe give you the feedback that it looked somewhat like you were approaching that angle, and I think I was pissed off already from reading comments on other sites right before landing on your page. Apologies. :)
Long-winded, blah blah. Thanks for your time. :)
Not long-winded at all Mark. I am just bringing up issues that need a debate, and in turn the comments and feedback that I get is what makes me think. It is through this process that we learn .... and make no mistake about it .... I thrive on thoughtful criticism and disagreement and I am always appreciative that people like you take the time to post your comments an opinions.
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