An F-35 Joint Strike Fighter on display at naval yard in Maryland in January. (Yuri Gripas / Reuters)
CBC: Lockheed Martin warns it will pull $825M in F-35 contracts if Canada buys another jet
Canadian companies could stand to lose at least $10B over lifetime of aircraft
U.S. defence giant Lockheed Martin is warning Canada that $825 million in aerospace industrial contracts signed with Canadian companies to build and equip F-35 jets would be moved to other partner nations if the Trudeau government decides to buy a different fighter jet.
Steve Over, the company's director of F-35 international business development, says other countries that have already committed to buying the stealth jet are clamouring for the work.
"It's not really a threat," Over said in an interview with CBC News. "I don't want it perceived as a threat, but we will have no choice, if Canada walks away from F-35, except to relocate work in Canada to other purchasing nations."
Read more ....
WNU Editor: I am surprised that Lockheed Martin is making this "threat" public. My guess is that they are clearly miffed by this .... Canada Planning To Buy Super Hornet Fighter Jets Before Making A Final Decision On F-35s (June 7, 2016), and (I am speculating here) they are also warning other countries on what may happen if they choose another fighter.
23 comments:
We had no business getting involved with this in the first place. Canada cannot afford these planes. This is what happens when we allow the "ready aye ready" (or Okey Dokey) gang to run the country.
The Super Hornet will do the job and we're already at least familiar with the machine. The are other things Canadian industry can build without paying a ransom. How about washing machines, for instance?
It's an empty threat.
Canada participates in the program by making quarterly payments to Lockmart for Research, Development and Production, and Lockmart, after taking a cut, "kicks back" a fixed percentage of those payments to Canadian Companies for Research, Development and Production.
It's jobs subsidy program.
Stage II of the Project, is a Procurement buy of Operational Aircraft. There is no contract for buying actual F-35A's, just a statement of intent to consider.
As long as Canada continues the subsidy, LockMart has no ground to pull Canadian Contracts, and Canada has made no mention of pulling out of the subsidy.
WNU,
You mentioned something about fat, slow, soft, ugly, and very dumb often describing government and big industry. This would appear to be such a case in action. Lockheed Martin needs this business far more than Canada or anyone needs to buy from them. As such, threatening Canada or anyone else seems to be a bad idea that is only going to make a bad situation worse.
The US had no business getting involved in this either as it simply is not possible to build a fighter, bomber, and cover aircraft for ground forces and combine it into one and make it work. At the very least, the possibilities of success are so low that it was downright foolish to stake one's military future on such a thing succeeding.
It's still probably not to late to cancel the program. When it is cancelled, the folks involved with the program should be given dignified retirements along with any necessary counseling services they may need. To have failed at such a big project will no doubt be very devastating to some. To continue with this seems a foolish endeavor as good money and resources will simply be thrown after bad so to speak.
There is one thing that does bother me a bit though. The opposition to the F-35 is extremely shrill in their protests and has enlisted most of the media. As such, I'm starting to think "thou doest protest much" as a Shakespeare character once said. While unlikely, it does cause me to wonder if the designers of the F-35 might actually be on to something and folks in the media and enemy governments are desperate to keep the United States and its "allies" from obtaining this. Again, while unlikely, the increasing shrillness does make it seem prudent to at least ask the question.
Media criticism of the F-35 Project, has been nothing compared to the Milblogs:
http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.ca/2016/06/f-35-will-not-complete-initial.html?m=1
http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.ca/2016/06/denmark-buying-21-f-35sstarting-in-2021.html?m=1
http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.ca/2016/06/f-35-delays-force-usmc-to-bring-30-f18.html?m=1
Jay,
I figured as much and as such, with these P3s, much always wants more. I'm not so sure about the "empty" part of the threat either. Next it will be a challenge under NAFTA for "expropriation without compensation".
Do you know how many of these companies are "Canadian" as opposed to branch plant by the way? Are there any figures on the actual number of jobs created?
Jay,
I'm aware of the miliblogs. I consider these part of the media. Given how much US military personnel have been screwed over by this government, many of them quite understandably may be willing to take money or other perks to push a cause.
The forces working agaibst the F-35 are far more organized tgan the other side. Given the shrillness of the protests, I'd be tempted to think Lockheed Martin is on to something and they're nervous.
As stated before, the F-35 is likely a failure that needs to be discontinued and the people involved retired with dignity but it seems to me the shrillness of the protests are cause for concern. As I said, "though doest protest much."
I predict the program will be killed by the next Administration and it will only be much later before it us learned whether or not Lockheed Martin and the F-35 really were on the verge of a breakthrough. Again, they probabl aren't but the shrillness of the opposition gives me pause. Hopefully the next POTUS assuming America survives long enough to get a new POTUS will be circumspect enough to ask the neccessary questions.
As long as Canada keeps up their part of the Research and Development Contract, ( the only F-35 contract the Canadian Government has signed), LockMart can pound sand.
It's 144 past, present and future R&D and Production contracts, currently worth $9.9 billion.
A lot of the contracts are testing, promotion and academic so who knows how many actual "Canadian" Universities and Manufacturers would be affected, we do know that 144 ex-RCAF Senior Officers employed by LockMart would probably be let go.
Thanks Jay.
Read the the most recent Snafu, the comments threads.
39 MSM outlets and 14 Milblog's have been "outed" for quoting or having "Guest Articles" written by LockMart Contractors and Consultants, with out disclosing that they are paid LockMart Contractors and Consultants.
Let me sum up the Canadian Situation for you,
In 1977 we bought 132 CF-118 Hornets. ( variation on the USN version, more robust landing gear, tail hook) 12 were dual cockpit arcraft for training transition from Tudor jet trainers to the CF-118's.
Over the years, the RCAF fleet has been through two upgrades, IMPI and IMPII, which has upgraded electronics, sensors, targetting pods, control surfaces, wingtips, comms and datalinks, and for 51 of the aircraft, required replacing major sections of the main fueslage because of wear and tear. The last of those upgrades, completed in the early '90's, even with the adding of 4,000 hours of operation to the origional baseline, will keep them in the air until 2020.
Out of the initial 120 Aircraft for our NATO, NORAD and CAP needs, 60 -70 remain, the rest are in the scrapyard, ( wear and tear) or crashed. ( The last "hard number" was 77 in 2012, (there have been crashes and groundings since).
For CAP, the CF-118's run north from Comox, Bagottville or Cold Lake, between 1890 to 2270 miles north, ( with no viable landing strips or airports before then) to 9 "temporary" airstrips further north. ( gravel surface, unusable in late spring and early fall, temporary shelters, thus the need for the robust landing gear). From there, they are refuled and armed, and await orders to engage Russia aircraft coming over the North Pole.
Based on current costs of the program, the proposal was that Canada buy 48 F-35A's to replace the CF-118 fleet. The current F-35 program will have the F-35A Full Operational Integration in 2028. That's 8 years with no RCAF, none.
The F-35A cannot operate from the forward temporary airbases. Those airbases need to be made permanent, with hard surfaces over melting permafrost, clean power carts, 24/7 power supply, all weather shelters and full high speed satellite data links. ($198 billion).
Cold Lake, Comox and Baggotville also require upgrades to support the F-35A, ($42 billion).
If an F-35A has to divert to any Canadian airport, because of an emergency, it will have to be partially dismantled and shipped on a CF-17 back to home base, as with out the data links, special fuel trucks and clean power carts, it cannot be diagnosed, repaired, fueled, have it's avionics maintained or be restarted.
The 9 FDAA that we share with Qatar, Kuwait, Germany and Poland will also require major upgrades to support "forward deployed" F-35A's, because none of those countries have any plans to buy F35's. ( $28 billion).
The F-35A also, cannot refuel from Canada's existing air tanker fleet, so we need to replace 2 Polaris tankers and 5 Hercules tankers and convert all the other RCAF and RCA aircraft over to boom fueling, 238 in total. ( $228 billion).
If the F-35A can meet it's target milestones by 2028, 1/6th will be able to meet the current sortie rate of the CF-118's, ( only 12 will be available at any one time, the rest will be undergoing service, repair or maintenece, compared to 60-70 CF-118's currently available) and each sortie will come at an operational cost 2 to 6x the cost of every CF-118 sortie.
Welcome.
Jay. Your summary on what is would cost Canada if it choose the F-35 is short and sweet .... one of the best that I have read for a very long time. Thankyou.
My favourite website.blog when it comes to the F-35 program ... and he has been doing it long before anyone else .... is the Eric Palmer Blog .... http://ericpalmerblog.blogspot.ca/
Every F-35 flaw that he has pointed out has proven to be true .... as well as every prediction that he has made becoming real.
As bloggers we have known each other for years, and he is without question (in my book) more knowledgeable about the F-35 program than anyone else .... including many within Lockheeed Martin itself.
So, in short, we can't afford it.
We'd be better off with something simple, sturdy, economically priced, and functional. Now who produces aircraft like that....
Another question.
Why don't we just get a license and build something that fits the bill ourselves?
Oh, and off topic,
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/06/10/us-bullying-canada-to-pursue-anti-russian-foreign-policy/
I don't really buy Draister's position. Canada is pretty anti Russia without any pressure.
Technically, we can't.
We can do some integrated manufacturing, but the complexity of the integrated systems , the lisence requirements, ( and denials) and a " from scratch" development time line,
Means we have to buy "off the shelf".
Super Hornets, Gripens, Eurofighters.
Too bad.
As for the choices, nothing single-engined for Canada. Past that, I hate being locked into the selection.
The Snafu comments only add to my conviction the F35 was never the way to go.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/john-ivison-ottawas-fighter-jet-dilemma-might-be-exactly-what-ailing-bombardier-needs
If i recall there was talk about Canada's ambitions to build its own fighter jet based off the CF-105 Arrow. Lockheed might be making moves to try and stop a direct competitor to their overpriced plane.
Sadly, I tend to agree with Jay. We just don't have what it takes politically or technically to put together something like the Arrow again. It would take a revolutionary change for Canada to be even able to think in that direction.
It's another project for the Grandkids.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/avro-arrow-redesign-pitched-as-alternative-to-f-35-stealth-fighter-jets
A better program would be to take the Canadair CF-5, upsize it to fit the AN/APG-79 AESA radar or a comperable system, add in modern weapons and systems, keep the twin engines but modern variants scaled up to the aircrafts new size, and build as much of it out of carbon fiber as possible, with a little modern "shaping" ( engine inlets) for frontal stealth.
The CF-5 in it's base form almost achieved full frontal stealth against AESA radars, just because of it's small size and design. It was fast, nimble, cheap to run and cheap to buy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Saeqeh
Make only 2 seater models and split up the tasks. Pack in a bunch of the Growler ELINT systems.
Or just buy a mix of Super Hornets and Growlers.
While I'm not against the Super Hornet, I like option 1 as it seems to be the best in terms of cost, further development of our abilities and Canadian employment in the sector. Has this idea been floated to DND?
The CF-5, F-5 variants, T-38 Talons, despite their stellar record as Aggressor Squadrons, were always "tainted" in Air Force eyes, ( not just Canada's) as being "baby jets".
Their inability to carry the heavy advanced avionics of the '70's, AARAM missiles, only two wingtip missiles and a small bomb load limited their "theoretical" abilities in both the BVR fight and their role as a strike aircraft. Their market sucess as a 2nd and 3rd World fighter, low cost and reliability further taints them.
Fighter Jocks want to drive Corvettes, Ferrari's, Aston Martins and Porsches, not your Dad's silver Camry, even though the Camry gives every one of those cars a run for their money up to freeway speeds, starts every time, costs a fraction to run, maintain and repair, and you can buy 4 to 10 Camry's for the same money.
The BVR "fight" is of course bogus. All the AirWars have involved VFR rules, unless there was an AWAC's that could identify aircraft taking off from an enemy airbase and vectoring towards Allied aircraft with a clear path to shoot. Too much chance of a Blue on Blue or even worse a Blue on Airbus incident to "whack" a radar target at BVR range.
I'd throw 'em the keys to the Camry and a bus pass and tell to take their pick.
The best fighter for Canada is the one that can do the job at an affordable price. With the world's second largest landmass and a population of only 34 million we have to watch our money. If "they" want to keep up with the Joneses they can move in with them. I'm sure there are all kinds of kids who would love to drive a Camry.... or an F5. I'll bet there are even more who would love to build them at a Canadian plant.
Post a Comment