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DW: Nations start to choose sides in event of North Korea war
As tensions rise, North Korea has found a supporter even as some US allies reaffirmed they would back Washington in the event of an open conflict. Could Germany - and other NATO members - be forced to fight for Trump?
Amid growing talk of the possibility of open conflict between the United States and North Korea, countries have started to affirm their positions in case violence breaks out on the Korean Peninsula or elsewhere.
Although countries have yet to throw their support behind Pyongyang in the event of a confrontation, North Korea has found supporters in its neighbor China - with some conditions.
"If the US and South Korea carry out strikes and try to overthrow the North Korea regime and change the political pattern of the Korean Peninsula, China will prevent them from doing so," said an editorial in the state-run Global Times.
Read more ....
WNU Editor: China laid the conditions last night on what would they do if war breaks out .... Chinese State-Run Paper Says China Will Stop The U.S. If They Attack North Korea (August 10, 2017). Personally .... I do not think China will come to the aid of North Korea, even if it is the U.S. and South Korea who start the conflict (which I doubt they will). As to who is left that will support North Korea .... it is a short list .... Iran and its allies, Cuba, maybe Venezuela, Ecuador, and Nicaragua (and it is a big maybe) ... and that is about it. And no .... Russia is not going to get involved in any North Korea war .... but they will position thousands of soldiers at their 12 km border with North Korea to dissuade any refugees from crossing in the event of war. As to who would support the U.S. and South Korea .... that list is too long to post here.
53 comments:
There can be no U.S. victory in a Korean war unless South Korean and/or U.S. troops move North of the DMZ... That is something the Chinese will not allow without a fight, and I believe that they have made that clear, regardless of who fires the first shot.
I also wonder if someone smarter than me could clearly explain the local, regional, and global effects of a nuclear detonation inside the atmosphere above the Western Pacific off the Southeastern coast of Japan...
North Korea is a buffer for China, I can't see them letting US forces to be aloud to be sitting on the Chinese border, just not going to happen. I also dispute the North Korean reserve force numbers, in the list above,I have seen numbers in the millions, Global Fire Power list 5.5 million in reserve, Newsweek 7.7 Million in reserve, that's a hell of a lot of troops and add that too 1.2 to 1.5 million regulars the numbers could range from 7 to 9.2 million troops, now the quality wont be there but with those kind of numbers who needs quality, it's going to be a hell of a mess.
Who cares what China wants.
China is counting on us to play by Marquess of Queensberry Rules.
Therefore instead of telling North Korea we have your back instead "If you start it, you are on your own".
This costs lives even in peacetime due to opportunity cost.
China holds the leash and when it is said that way, it makes it clear that China is the cause and the author of this.
Carton is called a "jackal" because it appears that, while Mr. Stryver very deftly presents each case, it is Carton's legal acumen that helps win them, though Stryver gets all the credit (a reference to how the jackals help lions with kills, while the lions take all the glory...
North Korea is Sydney Carton
China is Stryver.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australia-will-join-the-conflict-if-north-korea-attacks-the-us-malcolm-turnbull-20170810-gxty5f.html
There you go B Poster
Newsweek was bought for $1 for a reason.
Newsweek Sold for $1 to Husband of Dem Congresswoman
"Newsweek, infamous for its post-Obama presidential inauguration cover editorial proclaiming “We Are All Socialists Now,” was bought rescued by 91-year-old audio magnet, Sidney Harman. He is the husband of Demonrat California Congresswoman Jane Harman, the richest member of the House of Representatives with a net worth of $397.4 million in 2007.
Exactly what America needs! More incestuous collusion of media and government."
US Army War Collage also states 7.7 Million Reserves on Page 6 here,
North Korea’s Military threat:
Pyongyang’s Conventional Forces,
WeapoNs oF Mass Destruction,
and Ballistic Missiles
Andrew Scobell
John M. Sanford
April 2007
https://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/pdffiles/PUB771.pdf
TWN
That is a good post.
After shipping out people to Siberia and having a famine, does North Korea still have 7.7 reserves? Maybe. they probably can muster that many.
the Germans in WW1 rated their divisions, reserve and active on a scale of 1 to 4. Some active duty divisions were rated low and some reserve division were rated high. The same will be true of North Korea's reserves.
I bet the rating of their reserves will look my like an F distribution than a normal distribution. But that is yet another argument and I'll have to prove my point. Right now, it is my gut feel. I also think if they call up their reserves, they starve without Chinese food shipments. They are starving already.
That's nice to have a "big reserve", but it needs the appropriate logistic for moving that.
Fazman,
Thank you for the link. I will check it out time permitting. Many nations often send a few support personnel to "assist" the US in military operations. Then, if it goes well, pose for a few pictures, take some credit, thump their chests, and go home. If it doesn't go well, simply go home, bash the Americans, or go home and bash the Americans. Meanwhile their "support" did not materially affect the outcome. Frankly many Americans find such "support" insulting and we are beyond angry at our leaders for groveling before such people. With that said such "support" is better than having them fight alongside the enemy.:-)
Sincere heartfelt support of any kind is much appreciated. I will be interested to see just what your government is offering and what are the conditiins.
I probably did state somewhere on this site that if forced to choose the nations of earth would choose North Korea over America in the event of a military conflict. As things change and we learn more, we reevaluate our positions. What I would have posted here before was based on the assumption that Russia and China would both back Notth Korea. This is not the case right now. As the editor points out, NK has almost no real support here. Hence we are seeing the nations of earth behave in a different direction.
In getting China and Russia to agree to sanctions, DJT and his team may have pulled off the diplomatic feat of all time. This is impressive in and of itself made even more impressive by the fact that crazies in Congress and the media have made every effort to undercut diplomatic efforts with Russia.
Man , this shap out to be intersting stumpling empire with social , economica and political crisis and eccentric leader who want to show being tough and riseing power want to take center stage , could the nork be to us what afgan to the sovite , intersting times indeed .
TWN,
I agree with Aizino. Excellent post about the North Korean Reserves. You correctly point out that North Korea is a border for China, correctly I believe, and China will not allow US forces on their border.
The current force level of 28,000 or so in South Korea is not enough to threaten China and the US really doesn't want them there anyway. They are only there because of "fat boy" and his predecessors. Solve that problem and there's no need for them.
The US does not wish to be nuked either. As such, the Chinese and the Americans will need to come to a meeting of the minds on this. They are supporting us on sanctions and, as the editor points out, the North Koreans have few allies. We may just be getting there.
A Chinese state-run newspaper called on Beijing on Friday to "stay neutral" if North Korea strikes first in a conflict with the United States, despite a mutual defence pact between the Asian allies.
The nationalistic Global Times tabloid said in an editorial that Washington and Pyongyang were playing a "reckless game" that could lead to "miscalculations and a strategic 'war'".
Jac,
You bring up a very good point.
"The nationalistic Global Times tabloid said in an editorial that Washington and Pyongyang were playing a "reckless game" that could lead to "miscalculations and a strategic 'war'".
- Vijay
China had better hope there is no strategic war or miscalculations.
China can almost be one-shotted. It simply cannot defend itself.
If China goes to war with the U.S. It can say goodbye to Tibet and a good chunk of Yunnan, bits of Guangxi.
Can China fight in Korea, hold off Vietnam and India, while keeping XinJiang?
Putin would do to China what the Russians did to Qing China.
" Many nations often send a few support personnel to "assist" the US in military operations. Then, if it goes well, pose for a few pictures, take some credit, thump their chests,"
- B Poster
To tell a lie, you often have to start with a kernel of truth.
France and Britain have been a great help. Germany not so much.
We appreciate the Poles and the Ukrainians too.
Jac,
You correctly point out that a big reserve is good but it needs logistics. By logistics I assume you mean being able to transport and otherwise move troops and equipment where needed.
How good is NK'S logistics? Without such a big military is essentially useless. I've always assumed NK to be quite good at this sort of thing.
I also once thought the Chinese to be smart and adept at the so called long game. Now I'm not so sure. We could have come to a meeting of the minds on the following: 1.)China doesn't want American forces on its border and needs/wants North Korea as a buffer. 2.)The US can't have North Korea threatening it and South Korea of which the US has made an enormous investment in.
Instead China obseessed over THAAD. Perhaps they aren't as smart as I thought. Hopefully I'm equally wrong about NK and they aren't as strong as I thought.
Perhaps there has been a meeting of the minds here as China has signed on to sanctions. I would like to know what concessions had to be made to get them to sign on.
Don't be ridiculousness is the second highest contributor in every conflict since ww2 in Syria.
I think you are referring to poland
Aizino,
"To tell a lie you often have to start with a kernel of truth." This statement is truth.
I would agree on balance France and Britain have been more helpful than average. I would add Australia and Canada to this as well being more helpful than average. Frankly, to say "not so much" with regards to Germany I think is being charitable.
While I think all of the above should/could do more, any assistance provided is much appreciated. It's better than them shooting at us or otherwise supporting our enemies.:-) The burden being placed on America is unethical and cannot/will not continue indefinitely.
As for the Poles and the Ukrainians they are net liabilities. Part of the agreement tgat ended Cold War 1 was no expansion of NATO or US military forces to former Soviet and Eastern Bloc countries. We are in violation. Nothing personal against these countries. We need Russian assistance in a number of areas. These people had to be aware of these agreements. Whose dumber us or them?
This entire North Korean thing would be much less difficult if certain crazies had not undercut careful diplomacy with Russia for petty partisan political reasons.
Australian prime minister has pledged to invoke the and is treaty and fully commit to combat in support of u.s if attacked.
You know sort of like that little skirmish called Vietnam that you might have heard off.
Fazman,
As I said, any assistance Aussies or anyone else can provide is appreciated. It's better than having you shooting at us.:-)
As for Vietnam, we've all heard of it. Americans are reminded of that misguided action regularly.
I'm sorry it didn't work out. Aussies and others entered into this on America's side hoping to profit. Had it worked out they may have. It didn't. Constantly throwing this back in our faces is NOT helpful.
How much each country who is "allied" should commit is a debate in which reasonable people can and will disagree. America's share of the burden is to great. Others aren't contributing enough and need to do more. The current situation CANNOT and WILL NOT continue indefinitely. America should move toward a foreign policy more like that of countries like Australia and Canada. When properly explained, most Americans will agree with these statements.
You get the impression that if this doesn't spill into conflict then it never will.
Fazman,
I am not sure of your 3rd to last post about Poland and Syria.
France took care of Chad in the 1980s (finally) and took care of Mali recently. This obviated the need for the U.S. to intervene. France is like a hugging a prickly cactus ever since the egotistical de Gaulle retreated to France. To wit de Gaulle partially pulled out of NATO. We have also recently had the chandelier musketeer and the lavender marriage man (Which I think is often a result of behavioural sink)).
The Aust prime minister was the first nation to publicly announce he would invoke the ANZUS treaty and fully commit combat units to war in 'm if the u.s was attacked.
B Ploster implied that Aust would just show up with their hands in their pockets and quit when it got tough.
I felt the need to give him a history lesson from ww2,korea, Vietnam,Iraq,,Afghanistan and now Syria where we are the 2nd biggest combat contingent after the u.s.
My reference to the poles could have been Latvia outings for the good that they do for the u.s .
From Brietbart: Chinese Media Warns North Korea: If You Attack U.S., We Remain ‘Neutral’
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2017/08/11/china-will-stay-neutral-north-korea-attacks-prevent-u-s-south-korea-changing-regime/
Fazman,
I think I pointed out that Aussie contributions have been more than average and are much appreciated. I don't mean to be offensive. It is my considered opinion Aussies and others need to do more and the US less. The load being placed on the US is to great, is unethical, cannot and will not be maintained.
I reread the post I think you are referencing. When I referred to "many nations," I was not referring to Australia per say. Your country has been more helpful than average. As stated, I will be interested to see just what forces and support are being offered this time around. To reiterate, others need to do more than they have in the past. The US cannot and will not carry the level of burden it has been expected to in the past. Our people are not expendable to meet the needs and desires and others.
Finally, Australia is a country Americans look up and wish we could be more like. We have very sincere gratitude to our Australian friends.
Fazman,
I forgot to include. You type "Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and now Syria." By Korea I think you are referring to Korean War 1 and the possibility of the current conflict becoming hot.
All of the military operations including Korean War 1 were fundamentally misguided and in some cases stupid things to do. As such, our "allies" who assisted share in these things. Many of them (not Australia) show up with a small contingent, pose for proverbial pictures, collect a payout and go home. Perhaps if these nations had to make a bigger commitment to these things we might have saner policies.
Had SOMEONE not stupidly inserted us into Korean internal affairs back in the early 1950s we probably would not be in the current mess. Alas someone did foolishly insert us into this and here we are. Today it has to be dealt with.
The same applies to Cold War 2. SOME CRAZIES in Congress and the media have gone out of their way to provoke this, inflame tensions, slander, and otherwise defame to provoke this. Now we have to deal with it. This was a conflict we cannot afford, lack the resources to prosecute effectively, and did not need. Had these crazies not done this the current Korean situation probably would have been much easier to solve. Nice job!!
"We have very sincere gratitude to our Australian friends" - B Poster
Funny thing is, is that your gratitude is not sincere. You are not American.
Language analysis for the determination of origin (LADO)
Your day is nearly over. LADO can be an app.
When you fail so abjectly, you just irritate people and make them more determined.
That is you are counterproductive.
So by all means. Please stay. And I am being sincere.
;)
B. Poster, the Aussie SAS would kick your half arsed Russian spetsnaz forces into the ground, they couldn't organises a root in a brothel.
Aizino and Turfy77,
Now I am confused. When I say we have gratitude to our Aussie friends, I am being very sincere. Just curious. What precisely would lead someone to conclude I am not.
I am from America. For what it is worth I was born in Louisiana, have lived most of my life in Texas just north of Houston, TX. My profession is as a Certified Public Accountant. While this does involve some writing, this isn't my forte. As such, sometimes the grammar and sentence structure are off. Furthermore I am very busy but wish to contribute. As such, this further complicates things sometimes and leads to errors in grammar and syntax. I will try to do better.
I am sorry if I irritated you. Constructive dialogue is always appreciated and I do not view it as counterproductive.
Turfy77,
As I explained above, I am from America. As such, spetsnaz are not mine. SAS forces are not mine either.
Truthfully I don't know how well the Aussie SAS would stack up agains them. I don't know how American special forces would stack up against them. The only way to "know" is through actual combat. As I have stated, we don't need a new Cold War, can't afford it, and lack the resources to prosecute it effectively. Now if you wish to go fight spetsnaz or Russians, Ukraine could use some help. Go for it!!
It looks like you were trying to insult me. Maybe I misunderstood. I understand you are Aussie. I thank you for your country's assistance to America and I attempt to constructively state that other countries including Australia should do more while America lessens its burden. Reasonable people can and will disagree on just how much each country should contribute. I further point out that America should strive to be more like Australia. Your response to this is to accuse me of being a Russian speaking spetsnaz or something to this effect. I'm puzzled as to why you would need to insult me and, you and Aizino, it is puzzling why you would accuse me of being insincere.
In the event of hot war with North Korea, South Korea, the American mainland. and American "territories" are the ones who are going to bear the brunt of North Korean military attacks. Others are going to be largely unscathed if not entirely unscathed.
I'm not saying don't defend America. I am saying others need to think carefully before they are hypercritical of Americans when they insist on being treated with the same decency and honor that others take for granted.
"I am from America. For what it is worth I was born in Louisiana, have lived most of my life in Texas just north of Houston, TX. My profession is as a Certified Public Accountant"
You just added more fuel to fire. You are failing big time. Maybe a chimpanzee should bang on the keyboard. Could a himpanzee do any worse?
Aizino,
I think we are getting off topic here. It seems the points I raise are valid. You are having trouble accepting this. As such, you need to change the topic and somehow find a way to perhaps impugn my character. Perhaps you are even trying to accuse me of not being American and from there accuse me of being beholden to someone else. This way you can avoid having to address a point of view that otherwise has merit. When we don't like the message and have trouble refuting it, attack the messenger.
As I stated, I am from America. I do realize my writing skills may be somewhat suspect. I explained why. I am very busy and my profession does not utilize a great deal of writing for public consumption. Additionally, my eyesight is not the best. As such, being in a hurry, not writing much for public consumption in my profession, and having poor eyesight means I may sometimes make errors in syntax, spelling, and grammar. If you could point out the specific problems with my writing that need to be addressed, I will try and work on it.
I think I see the problem with the sentence above that you quote from me. I should have written it as: "I am From America. For what it is worth, I was born in Louisiana and have lived most of my life in a town just north of Houston, TX. I am a Certified Public Accountant."
I apologize for the errors. I will work on improving them. I would add that after being insulted or having the perception of being insulted I was probably angry and was not as focused as I should have been on the syntax. I will work on doing better in the future.
You got it, nothing like gassing your own hostages to death in a theatre,
Fazman,
Gassing your own hostages to death in a theatre? Obviously such an action is abhorrent. To whom are you referring?
I do not care about grammar unless it get in way of understanding what the writer meant. Then it is mainly the writers problem.
I care less about spelling.
There are people from different countries here. That is to be expected and is good.
What I don't like is someone misrepresenting themselves for the purpose of disinformation and agitprop. You have been around many non-native speakers. So it is not too hard to pick up when a person is one.
For not having much time as a CPA, you sure do post often and at great length, simply amazing. Who would have 'thunk' it.
"All of the military operations including Korean War 1 were fundamentally misguided and in some cases stupid things to do. " - A++ Poster
Option one
Fight back
Option 2
Let North Korea conquer South Korea.
A) If we had let the North have the South then Japan would have problems that the South is having now. communism is an expansionist ideology.
B) You would abandon the South Korea people? That makes you a _______.
If you really are a CPA in Texas, it is clear, who you would be. Intersectionality is awesome.
"What I don't like is someone misrepresenting themselves for the purposes of disinformation and agitprop. You have been around many non-native speakers so it is not hard to pick up when a person is one."
I have never misrepresented myself here or anywhere else and I am a native speaker. If this is the conclusion you came to, then you missed it here. It seems more likely that the message has resonated with you as being potentially accurate, you don't like it, and now you are trying to attack the messenger.
With regards to option 1 South Korea should have been able to handle this fine without us. Once we stupidly inserted ourselves into the affairs of a foreign country, we ended up in a bad spot. As such, we find ourselves where we are today. Now we have to deal with it.
With regards to A.)South Korea and Japan could develop their own nuclear weapons. They should have done this long, long ago. This would give them a fighting chance to defend themselves and would allow us the space to properly deploy our forces. We cannot serve as the police force for the entire world nor can we go through the world looking for monsters to slay.
With regards to B.)it has been reported that at least 33% of South Korean officers view the US as the primary enemy and not North Korea. While I have not been able to verify this, it does seem plausible. Positioning foreign forces on one's own soil will invariably create resentment. As such, I have deep concerns about whether or not these people are going to have our backs in a hot conflict. With that said NO ONE is talking about abandoning the South Korean people. This is the main goal here. Defend South Korea. They are our "allies" and I think we have an agreement with them to come to their aid. Fortunately I don't think it is going to come that. I think this going to end with a whimper rather than a bang.
I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence. I will reiterate I am from the United States, a native English speaker, cannot speak any foreign languages, have numerous family members who served in the US military and are serving in the US military, wanted to serve in the military but was unable to do so due to poor eyesight, am an American patriot through and through who acts and speaks in what he perceives to be America's interest, and I DO NOT appreciate having that questioned.
It may have been necessary to enter the Korean Conflict back in 1950 as this was a front in the Cold War against the Soviet Union. Once the armistice was signed, the top priority of South Korea should have been to develop its military capabilities including a nuclear deterrent. This would have allowed the United States to draw down its forces and, in time, an exit strategy. A strong militarily self sufficient South Korea allied with the United States would be a much better situation than where we are now. Had that track been pursued in the early 1950s such a situation may have been achievable.
Sorry about the multiple posts. Second paragraph in the second to last post: what I mean to convey was that if someone has concluded that I have been misrepresenting myself in some way or that I am not an American born and raised in the United States by parents who worn born and raised whose parents were themselves born and raised in the United States they are mistaken. Again, I apologize for any grammatical oversights. While I am busy, we make time for things such as this because I seek to learn.:-)
"All of the military operations including Korean War 1 were fundamentally misguided and in some cases stupid things to do. " - A++ Poster
"It may have been necessary to enter the Korean Conflict back in 1950 " -- A++ Poster
Well you walked that comment back.
'fundamentally misguided' <> 'It may have been necessary'
These are either weasel words or you command of the English language is superficial.
Also, I never knew that you could get as CPA out of a Crackerjack box.
Actually Aizino getting a CPA certification is VERY difficult and requires much hard work and discipline. Crackerjacks are for children.
I do admit that perhaps it may have been necessary to enter the Korean conflict back in 1950, however, I do think it was fundamentally misguided. I may need to do some more research on this one. As such, it became necessary to "walk back" the comment.
Poor AS
makes statement. Now must do some research to see if what he said makes any sense...tip: research first and then state.
And do not answer with your usual venom
Fred,
Yes it is a good idea to do research. If anyone does so, they will obviously know I am from the USA and I have never misrepresented myself here.
As for my position on getting involved in the Korean Conflict in 1950, I believe it a fundamentally misguided action. This is my considered opinion. I should have clarified. Part of my problem is I am very passionate about the positions I take and tend to believe my position as the only one. This is obviously not true. I shall try to do better in the future.
My arguments here could well be the stupidest things ever. Attacks based upon the merit of the points I raise are actually appreciated as much can be learned. I DO NOT appreciate attacks on my character.
For what it's worth, I believe most American foreign interventions from WWI forward were fundamentally misguided. I suggest the advice of George Washington. Why quit our own to stand on foreign lands? The full quote is available online. While he meant Europe, I think it can be pretty much applied to any foreign involvement.
As for South Korea since receiving my first primer on this in the early 1990s, I have been concerned their leaders would do something stupid and get us involved in a shooting war that gets our people killed for no good reason. Since the armstice, a series of miscalculations have been made and here we are.
Not to worry South Korea. America has your back. That's what we do. Do you have ours? That's the multi trillion dollar question.
You got it, nothing like gassing your own hostages to death in a theatre,
Sarcasm in regard to Spetznatz professionalism in hostage rescue.
Fazman,
Thank you for the clarification. I suspected this is what you were referring to but wanted your clarification before any reply. From reading your posts I've come to know you to well.:-)
As you know when I first started posting here, I was convinced Russia and China were the two most powerful countries on earth. As I'm sure you've figured out, I've since backed away from that to a degree. As new information becomes available, smwrt people change tbeir positions. The Chinese have been acting rather stupid of late. At this point, tbey do not seem oooh so mart. As for the Russians, they agreed on sanctions against North Korea. To have achieved this, something is obviously up.
With that said I have already explained how additional sanctions against Russia over Ukraine are likely to end. I'm sure you've seen the posts. I stand by the predictions at this time.
It's long been on my so called "bucket list" to tour Australia. I plan on arranging the visit soon. What would you revommemd I see first?:-)
Americans have always hoped for foreign and domestic policies like those of Australia. Hope springs eternal.:-)
Yup A++ poster took a test and became a CPA. You that's it.
More like he got it from crackerjack.
Aizino,
While the test to become a CPA is very difficult, so difficult in fact that attorney/CPA colleagues have all informed me that the CPA exam is harder than the BAR exam, there is much more to it than simply passing a test. There are educational and experience requirements that also have to be met.
Saying that the CPA exam is not very convincing detail.
So I am sticking with the crackerjack hypothesis.
Aizino,
You may stick with your hyporhesis. Such a hyporhesis is either based on stupidity or ideological blindness. At this point, I think your problem is ideological blindness.
I could ask are you a "neo conservative" bought and paid for by such people. If so, BE GONE!! :Leave us and the world alone. Allow us to live in peace.
EVERYONE will gladly destroy the "neo conservatives": GET OUT THE WAY and allow us to live in peace. Where and when this isn't possibleand , consult with tne Russians and DO NOT act stupidly. Some fools acted stupidly to inflame Cold War 2.
B.Poster,
I highly recommend coming to Australia, I'm sure you will thoroughly enjoy it.
Cheers!
"ideological blindness"
I married a 'communist'.
'a "neo conservative" bought and paid for by such people.'
You are confused. People like Robert Creamer & Obama do such things.
Robert Creamer “Bob”: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know
http://heavy.com/news/2016/10/robert-creamer-bob-white-house-video-barack-obama-dnc-voter-fraud-donald-trump-hillary-clinton-democracy-partner-wife/
I hope you are a better 'accountant' than you are about military affairs, because you suck at military analysis. Either that or you area troll.
Which reader hear has not heard you repeat ad nauseum that Russia or China is stronger than the U.S.?
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