The Robert E. Lee and Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson monument base is viewed in Wyman Park Dell in Baltimore, Maryland, after being removed by the city on August 16, 2017
AFP: Poll shows most Americans want to keep racism-tainted statues
A new poll Thursday showed that most Americans favor leaving in place statues of Civil War figures associated with the defense of slavery, offering a measure of support for President Donald Trump's stance on the issue.
Days after a violent rally by right-wing groups to protest removal of a statue of Confederate general Robert E. Lee in Charlottesville, Virginia, the NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll found that 62 percent felt the statues should remain as historical symbols.
"Just 27 percent said they should go," said NPR. And, in a striking breakdown, 44 percent of African Americans agreed the statues should stay, against 40 percent who said they should be removed.
Read more ....
WNU Editor: We were faced with the same numbers (if not more) when I was part of a group that wanted to remove Lenin's Mausoleum from Red Square in the 1990s. And the biggest supporters .... like the above poll that shows that a majority of Black Americans want to keep the status where they are .... came from those who suffered the most from Communism. I will not deny it, but I had a lot of trouble accepting the fact that most did not want the removal of Lenin's tomb .... just like I am sure that there are many right now who are having trouble accepting the above poll result. In the end I took this defeat as one more reason why we must redouble our efforts to educate the Russian public on the history and legacy of Communism .... and we are now using Lenin's Mausoleum as a tool and symbol to make this point.. Will the same be done in the U.S. .... yes and no. The push to educate the U.S. public on the history of slavery will always be there even though the country's demographics is changing, and most people do not feel responsible for that legacy. But the politics of race is still deeply embedded in U.S. politics, and I certainly do not see any let-up on this issue from the political and media class.
27 comments:
"44% of Democrats want them to stay. 47% want them removed. You would think that's largely the influence of the party's African-American base. Nope.
44% to 40% of African-Americans want the statues to stay. That's a larger percentage of support than among Dems in general.
Meanwhile the Latino numbers look a lot like the white numbers." - FPM
Im a little surprised by the African American numbers. These statues were installed on public government property during Jim Crowe post civil war as props to intimidate freed slaves. They were in no position to erect statues of Lincoln. They contributed to the big lie that separated slavery from the confederacy.
It was wrong to put them up. Im a little surprised there is not more support to take them down. Maybe the big lie worked.
Lenin s statue did not remain long in Central Europe after the Soviets left.
Jim Brown. As I said .... support for keeping Lenin's tomb at Red Square surprised me. I am not surprised by Lenin's removal in Eastern Europe .... Soviet Communism was viewed as an outside ideology imposed on the people of eastern Europe. As for the African-American numbers .... like in Russia .... the ones who suffered the most want these symbols to remain. Go figure.
For those who would like to see the whole poll, not just the part the Daily Mail chose to go with:
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/16/543957964/poll-majority-believe-trump-s-response-to-charlottesville-hasn-t-been-strong-eno
As for Lenin and confederate statues:
I believe you (WNU editor) mentioned in an earlier post that a compromise was to also have a small museum putting Lenin in historical context. I and many would have no problem with a plaque on these statues explaining what these people did. They fought for and condoned slavery, were traitors to the U.S. and caused the deaths of thousands of soldiers. Caught an interview with Lee's great grandson which, among other things, covered that very thought. He correctly pointed out that (paraphrasing) "people would see that and ask why these statues were erected." Accidentally or on purpose, he got it right.
From what I understand, Russia (USSR) allowed the palace of Katherine to remain as a reminder of WHY the Bolshevik happened in the first place. I believe that the symbols & statutes of the Confederacy should likewise remain as a similar reminder of where we've been & why (my grade school teacher from the south always referred to our civil war as the "war of northern aggression", and expressed the view that slavery was a very minor issue as only a few wealthy people could afford them - this was an economic & taxation issue to the south). BTW, I was raised in southern California in the 60's through the 1980s, so I'm not from the south....
Not all southerners fought for slavery.
Some did not fight at all, but hid out. Many in southern Appalachia did not heed the call of the Confederacy. Many in Appalachia had not stake in slavery.
Of course black racists will say they were against slavery if they were poor whites simply out of economics. When you point out that Georgia voted against slavery the 1st time around that is all a black racist is willing to concede. It is not like a person could have more than 1 motive.
Also the 1st slave owner in America was a black man by the name of Anthony Johnson and the person he enslaved was a ... black man. Anthony had been caught by black slavers. He was from Angola.
How will a liberal / Leftist compute that without their heads exploding?
Getting back to the main point. Some people joined the Confederate army to not look like shirkers. If more than 1/2 your town goes to war, you do not want to malinger. Alabama voted 3 times to join the confederacy. the 1st 2 times were no votes.
What influence did the so called journalists have on these votes?
A lot of old timers referred to it as "the war of the states".
Sheerah,
You are right about the Communists keeping the old palaces intact. Stalin even ordered the rebuilding of the Summer Palace outside of St. Petersburg after the Second World War because the Nazis torched the place. It was done to show how "bourgeois" the aristocracy was during the times of the Tsar.
Jason Johnson,
Thank you for the NPR link. I did a quick search but I could not find it.
"It’s easy to forget that the firestorm engulfing America over Charlottesville began when a democratically elected local council, after full public debate, voted to remove a Confederate monument.
In response, fully armed Nazis, KKK, other fringe groups and right wing militias descended on the small city in a "Unite the Right" rally. They came in a show of force to confront, defy and overwhelm the democratic process, and to terrify elected representatives everywhere."
Even the Terminator thinks you have become a shit head WNU Editor,
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1475398805828907&id=160389977329803&refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Fattn%2Fvideos%2F1475398805828907%2F&_rdr
BTW, nice pro-Nazi dogwhistle, your Dad would be proud.
As I understand it southern soldiers were very good at killing Nazis, and for that matter anyone that Uncle Sam threw them up against. Lots of medals of honor went to those hill billy's, and I think a lot of people respect them for their tenacity in the field of combat which spans back into the civil war, and all the way back into the revolutionary war. I guess the same can be said for the American Indians who's tribal names now accompany awesome weapons of war, an appropriate honor for deserving adversaries.
The real question is were the confederates deserving adversaries?
A fight with History......and what about the Future? Is someone is interested by what we have to do for our child more than what we cannot do for our ancestors?
I'm sure you will tell in but one more anecdote you find on goggle
Fast Freddy 2 Shoes,
Most Polls are not anecdotal. I chose ones that were mainstream.
But stick to your story & remain you trollish, Leftist self.
For better or worse, most people do not really care much about abstractions of ideology or the ethics of old history. They do care about their current identity. This explains why communist symbolism is going to stay in Russia for a long time (some parts of it may stay for as long as Russia exists, and anyone confused by this might also be advised to take the time to ponder the French national anthem and certain statues that are allowed to remain standing in London) - communism and anti-communism are not things that most people really care about, but the Soviet past is a part of the modern Russian identity, and that is that. Likewise, the CSA is a part of both Southern and more general American identity. Slavery was a long time ago. Race is still with us today but the connection is not as obvious as one would think.
I am somewhat surprised and amused by the amount of African-Americans being okay with it, but perhaps it is not such a big shock. People who protest against majority symbols are always just a vocal minority that gets all the attention. In reality many blacks probably do have a more or less American culture, so would share the same symbols. Their real history and age-old problems of historical ethics simply do not matter. That is simply how most people's minds work, and frankly it is just something that should be accepted.
Jim Brown, "big lie"? I don't think there is any particular conspiracy behind this. Just human minds not working the way Enlightened People want them to work.
Communism is not the same as the American Civil War. People in 2017 do not see the world as the people in 1860 did, they see the new and improved revisionist history where every white person in the south in 1860 owned dozens of slaves and wore pillow cases on their heads, when in fact only a small percentage owned slaves and the vast majority of them fought for their states against what they thought was northern "aggression". People of the politically correct era of 2017 see what they are told to see. Nothing wrong with the statues, some of them are nice, some of the Confederate generals are considered some of the best US generals of all time, ie Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson. The leftists are trying to erase history and it is wrong to do so. IMO
I agree sheerah,I was taught the same thing in grade school in the 60s. Also, to add to that, it was explained that the statues and monuments was to show we are all one nation no matter where your from or ideals. The south stood for what they believed was an injustice until they was beaten on the battlefield. The idea that slavery was main cause was propaganda to help enlist northern army. We see that in every war... All Germans being Jew killing Naxis, all Japanese being bloodthirsty killers, all Arabs being child molesters and wife beaters. It's the way of war. Political correctness has worsened it to now include our own, people in our own community, our next door neighbors. It's truly a sad time we live in.
WNU editor, can you do everyone a favor and ban Herr blog troll Jay Farquharson? He adds no value aside from "LMFAO", citing links from the Onion to make a poor excuse of an argument, spreading false information, and attacking people constantly; including yourself. The guy just needs to take a seat. Pardon me, I did just assume his gender.
I actually enjoy reading Jay's when he is on the ball. But there is a bigger picture involved. I have to be careful because of legal reasons. Comments on a blog can get the owner of a blog into a legal headache. Threats. Racist remarks. Homophobic or religious insults. That is big no-no, and for good reasons. This way I can assure that the debate is civil, and people who have something constructive can and will say it without being concerned that they will be called (fill in the blank). I also enjoy criticisms. Case in point .... when Jason Johnson makes a critical comment on this blog about something that I have posted .... he has always been right.
Some of these statues were erected by hate, which serves to remind later generations of that hate.
In 10 years, 20, 30 or more... if these statues are all torn down, people will remember that it was hate that torn them down, not love for their countrymen.
History will get distorted, and without anything reminding people of what went on before, it may repeat itself.
D. Plowman,
Someone told me the exact same thing when I was pushing to remove Lenin's Tomb from Red Square 25 years ago. That remark and a few others made people like me pull-back.
It’s Time To Blow Up Mount Rushmore
dailycaller.com/2017/08/15/its-time-to-blow-up-mount-rushmore/
One reason I am so adamantly opposed to pulling down the confederate monuments, is that there is no pleasing these people. None.
They want to take down statues to Jefferson. If they had been born in the day, they would have reacted pretty much like anyone else. So it is rank hypocrisy on their part and virtue signaling.
One person did not tear down Mount Rushmore. Instead he added another statue, that of Crazy horse.
... and you know what? People want to see it.
My ancestors fought for the Union. Not only did they fight for the Union, but we were run out of a border state due to unpopular opinion before the war. It was not to far were many people were dying before the war. So I take great exception to foreigners telling us, American (or Murricans as some like to slur; to me personally saying Murrican 'is fighting words'. It is like saying the N-word. Perception is king here.) what to do.
BTW Rush Limbaugh pointed out (I have to fact check it or see if Rush is kidding) is that most statues have the horse's ___ pointing north. I can take that in stride.
Not even a day has gone by
Deja vu:
"One reason I am so adamantly opposed to pulling down the confederate monuments, is that there is no pleasing these people. None."
New Orleans' Joan of Arc Statue Vandalized With 'Take It Down'
I have heard of DWEMs i.e. Dead White European Males. There has been a push to get rid of studying the work of DWEMs in colleges since the early 1990s or maybe before.
So what is this? Is the Left now "hating on' Dead White European Females (DWEFs) ?
I do not know that Joan owned slaves or attacked indigenous peoples.
I think they just hate St Louis, because of the colonial period. they want it erased, renamed or something else.
These people will not stop, so neither should we.
Actually it is not much of a statue and people relay do not stop to see it except for the sake of completeness. I was underwhelmed. People want to see the Arch and so stop by.
Now we should build a stature the size of the Arch to torque them off.
idioms.thefreedictionary.com/torque+them+off
I am unhappy with Schwarzenegger.
His good points
- He succeeded at body building
- He was good at real estate
- He was a good actor. Not saying he had good technique, but it was good enough and it made people want to see movies and therefore sold tickets. People liked the characters he portrayed and him.
- He was a bad governor.
- Allegations of sexual misconduct
- For all his hustle in his youth and mid life and what ever due diligence he did, when he talks about global warming and other things, he is out of his league.
And even more deja vu:
"One reason I am so adamantly opposed to pulling down the confederate monuments, is that there is no pleasing these people. None."
"#AllStatuesMustFall - Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Gandhi, Lenin and Lee"
& this is a money quote:
"Gandhi was a jerk, but it's probably just that British racists are short on Confederate memorials to pull down. And besides the whole goal is to spread controversy. That will do it."
Seattle mayor requests removal of Lenin, Confederate statues - myNorthwest
https://archive.fo/P8Fow#selection-1259.0-1258.
There is a nice picture of the statue of Lenin. It is on a busy thoroughfare. It is at the intersection North 36 Street & Freemont Place North.
I believe that the mayor is playing up this issue, because he needs the votes. As a gay mayor who likes young men, he does not want to end up like the Portland mayor Sam Adams (2009-2012)... out of office.
Although they did take care of Sam Adams wit 2 gigs, the latest one being an environmental/sustainability/global warming gig.
Statues are still being talked about
Statue of Lenin, Seattle
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle
I think the statue should be kept although I am a devout anti-communist.
I am not sure, who Lewis E. Carpenter was or what he believed, but the stature is a piece of history and should be preserved. It is priceless.
Stephen Davenport,
The statue of Lenin should preserved not because I agree with Lenin, I do not. It should be preserved, because he have it, there are a lot fewer now than there were 30 years ago, it is historical.
I would keep a statue of Lee over Lenin everyday of the week.
I might have to keep a statue of Lenin over Nathaniel B. Forrest.
Lee fought for his country, Virginia. Lee voted against secession, but once his state seceded, he stayed with his state. Lee was a great general and their should be statues to him.
Lee also helped end the war. Jefferson Davis wanted to start a guerilla war and Lee told him no way.
More diaries and newspaper accounts of the time need to be gathered, collated and published. Many people went to war for their state and not for slavery.
I know someone who has collected a lot of diary entries and such that made that point.
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