U.S. President Donald Trump and China's President Xi Jinping shake hands ahead of their bilateral meeting during the G20 leaders summit in Osaka, Japan, June 29, 2019. REUTERS/Kevin Lamarque
Marion Smith, USA Today: We’re in a new Cold War. Hong Kong, like Berlin before it, is the first battle.
Continued American silence will convince China that it can advance on other fronts. We must show Beijing that Hong Kong’s freedom isn’t up for grabs.
Would the United States have let the Soviet Union invade West Berlin? Never. Yet America is on the verge of allowing Communist China to enslave the free city of Hong Kong. If this happens, it will be one of the greatest abdications of U.S. moral leadership in history.
Right now, Communist China is massing paramilitary forces on its border with Hong Kong. The purpose appears obvious: Intimidate the pro-freedom movement that has brought parts of the city to a standstill in recent weeks. Meanwhile, Beijing’s rulers have labeled Hong Kong’s protesters "terrorists,” while stating that “those who play with fire will perish by it.” The echoes of the Tiananmen Square massacre 30 years ago are unmistakable.
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WNU Editor: I grew up in the Cold War, and this is not the same. What we are seeing is the rise of China both economically and politically, and how they are using these strengths as leverage on the world stage. Ideology may play an important role for President Xi in China, but outside of China Communist ideology is the last thing that people are interested in.
17 comments:
Wnu, I agree on one side:
We are in a cold war with China and it is good that we realize this.
BUT.. China is not rising. Look at the numbers:
1. Up to 30% of their GDP is fake, as satellite data (you posted yourself) shows
2. Housing bubble - this will hit early next year as they have no more money to fend it off.
3. Their economy is contracting
4. Their economy is much more than the American economy built on debt. Why is that? Look at debt in the USA. It is the public sector. The private sector has a MASSIVE surplus in the USA. They are doing GREAT! In China - as you must know - the private sector lived on debt for the last 5-10 years. They have ZERO assets left. Where is the money coming from? You posted yourself that the private sector in China increasingly writes IOUs to their employees!!! They are not paying their own employees!
5. The mask is off. Everyone in the world, especially after Hong Kong and what's still about to happen (mass protests on mainland, mass police force to subdue them etc etc it will get nasty and ugly and the communist party's ugliness will be visible to everyone...
6. I have seen first hand massive investment - and more so - capital drain from China. This has been going on for years now. In my sector this started 3 years ago when everyone started moving their plants to Vietnam and Thailand and Laos, Myanmar etc.. China .. you go to China if you want to go broke/get robbed/extorted.. it is no longer a secret. Everyone knows. In my company people sign waivers to no longer have to go their for business.
WNU.. respectfully .. you have no idea about China.. "rise of China" was 5-10 years ago if you were a cnn analyst lol.. everyone who is following this closely and has contacts to China know they are in FULL PANIC mode. this is not a drill.. they are out of money and out of options
I don't know that the demonstrators in Hong Kong can be said to be " pro-freedom". They seem more like anarchists. They are vandalizing public property, disrupting air travel and costing millions of dollars. Bringing a city to a standstill is not the actions of movement that has freedom in mind.
Anon 11:46 AM,
I think the growing intensity of the protestors is a reflection of the popularity of dictator Xi in Hong Kong and, of course, the wisdom of gun control for the Chinese dictatorship. Are you watching, US liberals?
Myself I'd greatly enjoy a rebellion by the Hong Kong police. This would require an escalation by the benevolent leaders of the mainland using the armed forces with a resulting loss of face. Not a bad outcome when one considers Xi's photogenic mug.
roger - you are absolutely right.
While I do not like weapons (I have shot several different models once at a gun range, and find them cool but barbaric.. anyways).. so I do not like guns, and I hate all the shootings that happen in the US, BUT I also understand that this is caused by a sick society that has a lot of soul searching to do, and has a lot of mentally ill people.
It is not a gun that kills. It is humans.
And once liberals understand this (and ironically I AM a liberal), they will see that Hong Kong is a great example what happens to freedom if only a tyranic state holds the weapons. CHINA is the BEST EXAMPLE what happens if people cannot defend themselves and determine their own freedom and rights. They are slaves!
Loss of face for taking action vs loss of face for not taking action. There is always a price to be paid either way and is loss of face really so bad as next week there will be a new big news item, somewhere, to distract the masses?
Anon (11:42AM),
I like your optimism. If you are correct one of our (America's) two mortal enemies is in serious trouble and not as powerful as perhaps some have thought.
Anon (11:49),
I've had the same thoughts about these "protesters." Who organized it? Who is funding it? Who leads it? What do they want? If we answer the first three questions we'll have a good idea as to the answer to the fourth question.
Poster
It does seem suspicious. As with anything along these lines look to who benefits the most.
Bob,
Good question. Who benefits the most? I'd suggest the following (in order of likelihood)
1.) This is a false flag opetation by China. They raised up the "opposition" and spread it internationally trying to ensure that all see it. At that point depending upon how the "world" and most importantly America their arch enemy reacts they plot their next move. If America "looks before they leap" and jumps "all in" in support of that opposition they simply crush it and explain how they crushed their enemy to tne homeland and to Hong Kong residents as well. After all it's much better with us. Hong Kong is wealthy. The evil Americans tried to take rhis away and with all of the cameras in Hong Kong America's dastardly deeds could be presented to the world. Seeing all of this combined with American "imperialism" being crushed China gets a hugh win. Seeing how China crushes a rebellion and undermining the Americans it couldn't possibly get better for the Chinese.
Yes I agree. To answer the question "Are we in a cold war?" there is always a cold war of sorts going on. The only questions are who is it against and the prevailing temperature. The potential enemy can actually be any country, but the biggest are best at firing up business for the WIC. To many a hot war is much better than a cold war for various reasons.
As regards your post per who benefits the most, I would add Trump who would kill a baby if it was required to promote a product, or, a thought of his, given half the chance. He does desperately need an issue right now to distract the peons although throwing out Greenland might do the trick for a week or two.
I don't for a moment think he is as inane as he lets on. In this respect he is dumb like fox, smart like streetcar.
Unfortunately the Chinese didn't grasp tne brillance of Trump in choosing to "stay out" of this. He called their arrogance. They'll crush the rebellion. The world will see how they did it and will tremble with fear knowing how China defeats those who challenege them. Kudos to Trump's brilliance in staying out of this!!
As Trump wisely chose to keep out of this even calling the Forbes most powerful person person in the world "his friend" this can't posdibly undermine us. It can only help us. Some reports indicate Xi Views Trump as a friend. With trade negotiations are ongoing that we need America needs to stay out of this. Fortunately Trump has kept us out of this!!.
Essentially China benefits the most from this. If they achieve what they want it's a win. If they have to crush the "rebels" they lose nothing. At worst they break even. They didn't account for Trump's brilliance. Other American leaders blinded by ideology would've stupidly "jumped in" giving the Chinese leadership exactly what they want while crushing the "rebels." Imagine the messaging victory they would've received from this. This is surely what they hoped. Either way they lose nothing. Thankfully to date Trump has been bright enough to acknowledge Xi as "his friend." Is Xi his friend? Probably not but it does indicate Trump does grasp diplomacy in a way US leaders haven't for many, many years.
2.) Perhaps the British want their colony back and hoped to manipulate their American pupit onto helpning them. Again, Trump hasn't bitten. The British liked Obama, They've been using and abusing us for quite some time. Obama was compliant, They loved him. In contrast, Trump insists that America be treated with the same dignity that most take for granted. From the British and other nation perspective how dare such American impudence!!
3.) The incompetent boobs at the CIA are behind this. This is very unlikely as they'd been instantly detected by China and exposed. Again, thankfully Trump has chosen to keep us out of this save for perhaps some tepid criticisms no doubt saving a number of American lives.
4.) Maybe the rebellion is homegrown. By their actions they've revealed thmselves ae hoodlums. "Meet the new boss, worse than the old boss." In this case, choose rbe old boss!! Under the old boss wealth beyond measure has been achieved beyond even what the hated Americans could ever hope to accomplish has been wchieved. Very few would want to give this up.
Since you asked, who benefits the most, this would be China. At worst, they lose very little and stand to gain much. As such, the conclusion is the Chinese raised rhis up as a false flag. They are the biggest benefactors from this and stand to have minimal losses should things go awry,
Trump has thus far done well by keeping us out of this. We are trying to renegotiate trade arrangements. Inserting ourselves in this undermines this would've undercut this.
So who benefits the most from this? That'd be China. Crush the rebellion and show the world how you did it, you win!! The fear of you will reverbate!! No one will dare challenge you for tne foreseeable future.
Bob,
I've had trouble posting. I will respond to your last post as time permits. China benefites the most thus far. They're probably itching to send in tbe tanks and blaming the Americans. Fortunately Trump has stayed out of it. In any event, they stand to gain much while standing to lose little. Whose behind te protests?``I think its a Chibese false flag.
You say Trump would "kill a baby" to promote a product. Planned Parenthood which is the most powerful organization in America whose mission is killing babies has lost ground under Trump. As such, Trump has lost money and prestige to save the baby. Essentially he's lost sales to try and save the defenseless!!
Your first response first.
Trump is avoiding getting involved with the HK situation because he knows Americans have numerous issues, and those as yet unknown, that could put them in the streets before the upcoming election and no doubt afterwards if he is re-elected. No matter which side of the NK uprising he supports it will go bad for him back home. Trump has been laying the groundwork for quasi dictatorship all along and won't do anything to endanger his future plans. Americans are gamblers and will no doubt double down on Trump even those who have suffered under him.
As for a "Chinese false flag", forget that. There is no way China wants to be on the losing or even on the reconcillation side of this issue. They want total control and losing or giving in won't work. Even the protestors know that which is why they are adding issues to the soup. They know it would be easy for China to look as if they are giving in to dispel the uprising and then raise those and more issues, once they have established a very strong physical presence. At this point if they are delaying it is because they are collecting data, images etc., of the protestors for later, hence the masks.
What do they have to lose if they lose in HK? Think Taiwan.
Don't make the mistake of thinking anything Trump does as being for the good of mankind, or, even just Americans.
Do some research on Trump vis-a-vis Hitler's rise to ultimate power.
Trump separated parents and children and locked up the kids that have and are experiencing some serious tragedy even now. That was an atrocious action but what was worse was his obstinate stance on the issue that has not been resolved even today.
He has demonstrated constantly that he no sense of humanity and what he was showing to the the American people, perhaps to you, was that all the historical good faith and fellowship expressed and demonstrated on by past Presidents went out the window when Trump was elected, and nobody was able to restore humanity to the country mainly because he has sucked many American dipsticks into his net.
The hidden message is that what he was able to do to those families, kids, he can do to Americans, and eventually will if given enough time and there is nobody that can or will stop him.
Besides he ordered the killing of that 8 year old girl, that even Obama didn't have the heart to kill, remember?
To suggest Chinese would start a false flag rebellion in Hong Kong and would profit from this. ..Omg
The stupidity here :))
You guys should really know what you're talking about before you post.
It is the communist party's nightmare and offers -zero- wins ..how could they win this? "Crush the rebellion" like how? Or false flag? You serious? The people in Hong Kong wanted to stay free when HK was handed back to China. It was the biggest concern they have had for years! It is an organic uprising! Like wtf don't to travel? Never been to Hong Kong? Don't know basic recent history? Then please don't comment. And you cannot just "crush" a natural rebellion that is now more than a million strong and embedded in the culture and that lives within the centre of small Hong Kong. Sure, HK is financially only a fraction (about 4%,not 3% as the economist says because they haven't corrected for the falsely reported gdp of mainland China) of the overall Chinese gdp BUT it is also an important hub for import, export, business, finance, insurance. .you name it. If the troubles continue any longer it will also contribute to the continued fall of the Chinese gdp
The comments by Bposter and bob here are priceless. Shows how little they really know. Clearly no clue whatsoever. Clearly both have never been to Hong Kong. Clearly don't know the history. Clearly never talked to anyone there, BUT that doesn't stop them from talking BS and even agreeing with each other haha
Only the parrot could do worse
Bob,
Thank you for your reply. You appear to deviate from topic with your criticisms of Trump. Suffice it to say I'm a staunch supporter of Trump. I've seen first hand the enormous improvements that have resulted in people's lives as a result of his policies. Furthermore I view his staying out of Hong Kong as prudent and where he has spoken on this generally as smart diplomacy. There will be other threads where the other issues you raise can be addressed.
Anon (12:29 & 12:35),
I admit my suggestion may be in error, however, very respectfully I do not think it is stupid. 1.)By setting up the protests they are able to expose "rebels." They allow it to go on until the inner workings are exposed. 2.)At that point they either arrest the leadership and freeze the assets of the leadership ending it this way or if they believe they need a more dramatic demonstration send in the military and the police to crush it. Either way the message is sent loud and clear do not challenge Chinese authority. 3.)Should they opt for the dramatic approach it'll be made for video. The world will see how China deals with dissent striking fear and trembling in anyone ubder Chinese authority and influence meaning others are going to think long and hard before protesting again thus strengthening the Chinese leadership posituin. 4.)Crushing the protests in this manner will likely have negative economics and International political ramifications. Many commentators have written on this, however, I think they overestimate those costs. IMHO when weighed against the huge benefits that a public show of force is likely to bring such costs are going to be very minimal and short-lived. As such, while it may be in error, I believe the notion of a Chinese false flag is very plausible and Amerucan policy makers should consider.
I would actually love to visit Hong Kong and meet people from there. I'm always seeking to learn.
Bposter it's not a false flag operation. And the direct costs, while not huge, could take another 1% of china's gdp. And they barely have any money left as it is. On top, the infect costs (capital drain, brain drain, lots of tourism etc etc) are much worse.
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