Image: Ukrainian Ministry of Defense
War On The Rocks: What the Ukrainian Armed Forces Need to Do to Win
Our instructors were training a Ukrainian national guard unit near the Moldovan border. When we arrived at the range, a Ukrainian unit was already on the range throwing hand grenades in an open field less than 200 meters from us, then just dropping to the ground and watching them explode without any cover. These soldiers then proceeded to conduct machine gun training, shooting from positions from the left range berm across the range (not against the backstop). Our instructors were conducting round-robin training about 150 meters behind the range, and the rounds were whistling over our heads. When we approached the person in charge, he said not to worry; he was a Ukrainian marine who had survived Mariupol, and the range was to NATO standards. The bravery and elan of the Ukrainian Armed Forces are not in question, but this example is a small indicator of the issues plaguing the training of the Ukrainian Armed Forces — the lack of an ingrained understanding on how to conduct uniform, consistent training.
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WNU Editor: It takes a long time to train a soldier, and in this war of attrition, it is a problem that both Ukraine and Russia are facing.
24 comments:
yes, but the ukies have a bigger problem. Read the article. They are cursed with being between two worlds. One , the world they knew, centralized command and now the western way, which is decentralized command. What they have Now is a bastardized system of operations /leadership which is a mess. This is not good.
This Ukrainian army, by the reports here and others that we have tried to warn you about, is a mess anyway. Logistically, operationally, leadership the whole gamut.
Besides just the tyranny of economics of scale...This is why many of us has been saying, in part, that the Ukies are not going to win this war. It is like going to combat with Jerry's kids. A mess.
BTW it's not the common soldiers fault. This has to do With leadership. Starting with Zelinski. They are responsible, not that kid in the foxhole with an AK.
One other thing. Name one army that has been trained by the Americans that has succeeded in a combat zone. Viet nam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama.. They all have been failures. American training methods do not work well in other countries.
Another item... Firing your arty at max power to wear out the barrels? One hell of a way to have to do things just to stay alive. It shows the desperate nature of that combat zone.
So once again , I ask.. You are going to send this kluge ukie army against
an in-depth complex obstacle defense belt,
with interlocking fields of fire
and pre planned targets and
defended by a force larger than the attacking force
with limited artillery support
and no air cover.
You are an fing incompetent nut case.
yes I am infantry.. crunchy, pbi, grunts
Well tell me genius ...how is that going to work?
If what the dude above says is right, then why has it so far taken the massive mighty Russian military over a year and they are still far from winning? ps: the Americans did ok in WWI and WWII and stopped N.K. and China in Korean War.
Suicide mission needs no training fight your own problem sissy boys not a government fools
It's not your war kids so back off
Or hell
9:32
talking ab out Russians? or yourself?
who are you talking to? Milley?
thank you. agreed.
The German Army was doing great in winning nonstop in Europe in WWII till they were not.
horses are not dolphins. but men are men
In the 18th century the Austrians had a very disciplined military. They were feared. They built their military on close order drill. Precision drill. In the American revolution, some Austrians came to train Americans in Washingtons army. They started with close order drill.
My experience was the Marines, '75 to '78. The first month of boot was almost all drill. lots of punishment for f'ing up. as time went on I learned the point of it. When the Sgt. snaps an order, you are trained to obey immediately. Discipline.
Every time a squad, platoon or even four marines went anywhere on base they were marched. When I was a Sgt and sent to Jump school at Fort Benning Georgia, the six marines were now part of a 300 person class predominately soldiers. when we went to the chow hall or anywhere, we went in column as a mob. no NCO calling cadence or requiring a tight formation.
All of the above to ask, how much close order drill are these Ukies getting.
IF they want to be nazis like the SS, they better learn how to march. The Nazis could march.
the North Koreans can march. so too the Chinese etc
The marines are not for all military...they are tough and special. My son was a marine. Most army guys could not get through marine training but they are the bulk of fighting forces. In WWII we had draft and somehow managed to train sufficiently. True, non American people will present different issues, problems, but the Russian army was considered top notch and potent. Till Ukraine invasion. Now?
and of course you do know we are training on Amnerican soil military from various nations,ie Israel, Ukraine, etc to fly our aircraft etc.
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Ron hits the nail in the head. It is discipline that makes an army.
And back to one of my points...That is why American training sucks. We teach skills, not discipline. The our foreign trained minions fall apart we wonder why. What a joke. Tried to tell my superiors that. And many times they agreed, but we were not allowed to discipline within cultural norms. Telling an Iraqi to do pushups does not work.
All men are equal? That is debatable. But what is not equal are cultures, some are better than others. Some have more disciplined than others. So some cultures raise dolphins, Some raise horses and some raise idiots and cowards.
But trying to apply the same training methods to all cultures and expecting the same results is a recipe for disaster. And the American historical example shows this to be true.
That is just the way it is.
Oh btw, with what I said above. This does not mean to imply the Russians are superior. They are like the Israelis. In that, It is easy to be considered"good" when your opponents are incompetent.
ah. of course men are men and culture does shape them in various ways. What can be shaped by culture can be altered by culture also. The would-be soldiers may be somewhat difficult to train but they can be trained, as draftees in the American army were trained.
If you would read the entire post, you would discover that the basic cause of the difficulty our trainers are experiencing is that Ukrainian forces are used to an earlier Russian model of how to act, and respond, and this model is not proper for what our trainers are attempting to accomplish. Perhaps the tough time the Russian forces are having is that they too follow the Russian model and that model is not working for them.
Maybe.
The problem is that the US is trying to change the model of command and getting some resistance from the old Ukrainian regime. Because this is a huge cultural change in an already established army..
The russians , on the other hand, are not changing their system of command, so they are not experiencing this type of friction in their army.
If the Ukrainians would just wait. Give it a few years, then attack. Why? time to refit, rearm and revise their entire armed forces. By that time they would even have a viable Airforce to use. But to try this now, well God bless 'em. They will need it.
The problem is not the Ukrainian rank and file. The problem is with Ukrainian senior leadership.
It's just not America but Ukraine is getting superior training from the UK and other European armies. So far in this war Ukrainians seemed to be more disciplined and prepared than the average Russian conscripts. So I look at your analysis and I disagree.
Bombed CERN
U fakkkazzzz
Now
U got orders
999 Franklin Street
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